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Simon Willison’s Weblog

Before events took this bad turn, the contract represented by a link was simple: “Here’s a string, send it off to a server and the server will figure out what it identifies and send you back a representation.” Now it’s along the lines of: “Here’s a string, save the hashbang, send the rest to the server, and rely on being able to run the code the server sends you to use the hashbang to generate the representation.” Do I need to explain why this is less robust and flexible? This is what we call “tight coupling” and I thought that anyone with a Computer Science degree ought to have been taught to avoid it.

— Tim Bray

Posted 10th February 2011 at 6 am

Tagged , ,

338 comments

  1. I think the best rebuttal was already in his comments so I'll just quote it:
    "The recent outbreak of hashbang-phobia seems to belie an underlying fear of the web app as it encroaches on the web document's world."
    -James Pearce http://goo.gl/KtinU

    The idea that a long-running web app is a bad thing is total rubbish. Pointing to the poor execution of an idea (which I don't even agree that Twitter is, but I'll concede that's subjective) doesn't make the idea a bad one.

    The debate seems to have stemmed from the Gawker outage a few days ago, which resulted from deployment of some code that wasn't properly tested and it broke the site, and that code happened to be the Javascript which processed URIs. That has nothing to do with hashbangs and everything to do with code deployment procedures.

    Greg Hinch - 10th February 2011 16:02 - #

  2. No, no, no.

    This isn't about fear of web apps. I love web apps.

    This is about widespread usage of a technique that is fundamentally bad web architecture, and throws away huge chunks of what is valuable about the web.

    Links make the web. A link is a URL. When something performs a GET request against that URL, the resource that the person who created the link was referring to gets returned. You can knock out a simple client app in a few lines of any scripting language under the sun.

    Hashbang URLs change that. Now performing a GET request against a URL returns a massive chunk of script, which you have to run through a multi-million-lines-of-code JavaScript interpreter in order to figure out what the actual resource being linked to was.

    In the case of a link to a tweet, all of that effort is required to retrieve just 140 characters plus some metadata.

    In the case of Gawker, they've just made ALL of their content inaccessible to any web client that isn't a full fledged browser.

    Hashbang URLs are bad for the Web. The sooner pushState gains widespread adoption and makes them irrelevant the better.

    Simon Willison - 10th February 2011 16:51 - #

  3. The argument still seems to me to be more against the idea of web apps that run in a single page, which still need to link to content. The reality of most shops is that maintaining a separate URI structure that follows a traditional path rather than using some kind of hash technique is beyond the scope of available resources. Particularly if that path would only be required for a small fraction of your users, it would just be bad business (man hours vs return).

    Even with pushState, without using some kind of hash URI, you wouldn't be able to paste a link to a piece of content into say an IM or a Tweet. Long-running apps need to be able to externally link to content, and the hashbang solves that.

    Greg Hinch - 10th February 2011 18:33 - #

  4. If this is about how web apps are better than simpler methods, I am surprised that no one has posted their comment text as Microsoft Word documents.

    Surely the rich display options that format is capable of is better than having content readily displayable on this page, right?

    JR Conlin - 11th February 2011 00:17 - #

  5. @Greg: If you do pushState properly then yes you will be able to copy/paste the link and maintain application state.

    I'm using pushState on an app I'm developing at the moment and it makes everything so easy to code for progressive enhancement. All you have to do is overload the click handlers with javascript to ajax request a JSON resource instead of the normal html resource, it's so clean and graceful. Of course pushState isn't supported by Firefox 3 and *any* version of IE (yes even IE9), so I've had to crowbar in a shebang alternative for those browsers... Ugggh!

    @Simon: OpenID login doesn't seem to work by the way.

    Dave Jeffery - 11th February 2011 18:44 - #

  6. One example of these problems is the updates to Gawker Media's websites.

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