OpenIDThis shouldn’t be the image of Hack Day
I love hack days. I was working in the vicinity of Chad Dickerson when he organised the first internal Yahoo! Hack Day back in 2005, and I’ve since participated in hack day events at Yahoo!, Global Radio and the Guardian. I’ve also been to every one of Yahoo!’s Open Hack Day events in London. They’re fantastic, and the team that organises them should be applauded.
As such, I care a great deal about the image of hack day—and the videos that emerged from last weekend’s Taiwan Hack Day are hugely disappointing.
(These are still images from the video—the original has been taken down).
Seriously, what the hell?
I’ve heard arguments that this kind of thing is culturally acceptable in Taiwan—in fact it may even be expected for technology events, though I’d love to hear further confirmation. I don’t care. The technology industry has a serious, widely recognised problem attracting female talent. The ratio of male to female attendants at most conferences I attend is embarassing—An Event Apart last week in Chicago was a notable and commendable exception.
Our industry is still young. If we want an all-encompassing technology scene, we need to actively work to cultivate an inclusive environment. This means a zero tolerance approach to this kind of entertainment. Booth babes, tequila girls, and scantily clad gyrating women simply set the wrong tone, here or abroad. Heck, this isn’t just about offending women—many guy geeks I know would be mortified by this kind of thing.
Hack days are a celebration of ingenuity and creativity. Past US hack days have featured performances from Beck and Girl Talk, both of whom embody the creative spirit of the event. Sexy dancing girls? Not so much.
I’m not the only one who’s disappointed.
@Yahoo, for shame : http://flic.kr/p/78btX1 I’m frankly disgusted.
i am *so* disappointed: http://flic.kr/p/78btX1. remember, a team of women delivered the winning hack at the 1st one:http://bit.ly/FokfF
There was a flurry of activity about this on Twitter yesterday. I sat on this entry for most of today, partly because writing this kind of thing is really hard but also because I was hoping someone at Yahoo! would wake up and release some kind of statement. So far, nothing.
Update (1:30am): Chris Yeh of YDN has responded with an appropriately worded apology.
"What the hell?" is exactly what I thought, and I have been very surprised to see people defending this.
I'm glad you wrote about this.
Chris Shiflett - 19th October 2009 22:41 - #
To be honest it was all a bit surprising.. I think the fact the videos have been taken down (on youtube and vimeo) is a bit like them trying to brush it under the carpet but I don't intentionally think they were employed to lapdance, I think something got out of hand and someone isn't going to be having a good week.
Dom Hodgson - 19th October 2009 22:49 - #
I have no problem with sexy lap dances.
That said, there's a time and a place for dancing girls. A day about technology and community is not one of them, no matter the cultural ideals.
Go to a bar on your own after, if you want a lap dance that badly, sez me. Opt-in extra-curricular social activity is always available to people who want entertainment that is not appropriate for a group at large.
Funnily enough, the guys in the video look mostly uncomfortable anyway, bless their poor pounding hearts.
Molly E. Holzschlag - 19th October 2009 22:51 - #
I was as shocked as you to hear about this. "Hack Days" are advertised as an international series of events, which in my book means that "locally accepted" is no excuse whatsoever for this: the events have an international audience, and need to live up to international standards.
The male/female ratio at most tech events that I go to is utterly appalling - I have few ideas about how to fix it, but getting rid of any association between geek events and horny men would be a good start!
Having said this, at the last Hack Day in London, there was a visit from the "Red Bull Girls", which I found rather disturbing - not up to the level of Taiwan, but a bad judgment call nonetheless.
Richard Boulton - 19th October 2009 23:09 - #
Wow.
FAIL
Jeremy Zawodny - 19th October 2009 23:15 - #
Thanks for this post. As a teacher I was constantly trying to get young women interested in pursuing tech careers. Diversity in our industry would be much more than politically correct -- undoing the hegemony of our industry will bring about better technology. Every example of this sort of behavior sets us back more than we know.
We cannot tolerate these sorts of shenanigans at our events.
Shawn Rider - 19th October 2009 23:15 - #
I've heard plenty of people defend this as acceptable since the video made the rounds.
Imagine if this was at a BBC Mashed hackday? The Daily Mail would have a field day with "BBC hires lapdancers for geeks" headlines. The expectation for Yahoo should be no different.
Anon - 19th October 2009 23:28 - #
Ouch -- yeah, that sucks; thanks for posting about it.
-Simon
Simon Cavalletto - 19th October 2009 23:34 - #
Things like this are happening much closer to home, too - one of the after parties for Flash On The Beach last year, held at the Honey Club on Brighton seafront, included a couple of stage performances from "dancing girls."
It was a bit more tasteful than Yahoo!'s efforts (no actual lapdancing) but, more than anything, it just struck me as very odd. It's like the organisers just don't really understand their demographic.
Aside from agreeing with what you said above, I'd be very interested in more background on this story.
I hope an Asia-based journalist will track down one of these girls and get more information.
Wondering if whoever hired the lapdancers has been fired?
Jacques Marneweck - 19th October 2009 23:42 - #
Thanks for posting this. Twitter's fleeting and somebody needs to be called to task for this. I like to think had Chad still been running hack days, he would have stopped this from happening.
rabble - 19th October 2009 23:53 - #
Thanks for documenting this, Simon. I've added a link to your account on the Geek Feminism wiki:
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Yahoo!_Taiwan_O pen_Hack_Day_2009
Please feel free to edit it with more detail, as it's just a stub.
Leigh Honeywell - 20th October 2009 00:05 - #
Thank you for writing this post, and for speaking out.
I'm surprised a global company like Yahoo would let this slide.
Nerdette - 20th October 2009 00:27 - #
In the rails summit latin america, Locaweb, the organizer was selling tshirts "Domain names are like girls the best are already taken" also the official account on github has a repository with pictures from the showgirls on the show. (here: http://github.com/railssummit/morena_opensource) so weird that in 800 participants there was less than 20 women in the audience.. it is a disgrace.
Adriano Petrich - 20th October 2009 00:27 - #
Although i agree with the ethos and morals of the post i can't help but wonder if a bunch of drunk male geeks is more appropriate or not?
Titanas - 20th October 2009 00:29 - #
As someone who organizes these kinds of event as part of my consultancy practice, it's not surprising.
One time I was asked by a client whether I could include something in a similar ball-park to this in a developer event I was organizing for them.
Bizarrely the representative of the client who was asking for this was a woman herself. I think she had a very messed up perspective of developers on many levels.
I think it's awful and I support your motion that it has no place at our tech events.
What I think is appauling is for you to say as a woman I should be offended or that the reason women do not participate in tech events is because of "boob girls". As a woman (I recently checked I am still one) I am not offended and I think if it is culturally accepted then the theme is okay for me.
Politically correct for Americans is not always the same for everyone else. So I think we should stop throwing and forcing our views on everyone else. This whole article is trying to stir a storm where one doesn't need to be. Get over it, there were some dancing girls...big deal.
Pam - 20th October 2009 00:32 - #
While not disagreeing with any of the comments immediatly posted, I would love to see some sort of comments from someone from Taiwan on what developer culture is like over there. I'm thinking it's on similar norms to gaming culture, and let's not kid ourselves -- that's about as male-oriented as you can get.
Ernie - 20th October 2009 00:35 - #
What's the story behind this? What a trip.
Brad Neuberg - 20th October 2009 00:36 - #
I remember seeing some girlie stuff go by last year and having some squicked-out-but-okay-maybe-it's-a-cultural-thing feelings. The set from this year:
http://bit.ly/XiuDS
... makes it pretty clear what was happening.
On the up side, Y! PR has stood up, taken responsibility and apologized, even though--I'm pretty sure--the event went off without too much supervision from them. I really feel for Nickie and her gang; running a circus like Yahoo cannot possibly be easy.
Kent Brewster - 20th October 2009 01:01 - #
Disappointing and sad. Hack Days are some of my fondest memories of Yahoo. I pre-registered for the next one in Jakarta next month, but I'm starting to reconsider...
Mattt Thompson - 20th October 2009 01:10 - #
sad realization: when the CEO can emit a four-letter word, this is what an employee will emit.
spandana - 20th October 2009 01:18 - #
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cocakl/sets/721576224 85872337/
more.. - 20th October 2009 01:21 - #
Well --- I think sexy dancing girls (and sexy dancing guys) might have a justifiable place in EVERY gathering, at least in a hypothetical culture. It's sort of a big and relevant part of every moment of our lives - I'm sure Hack Day etc. have exciting food catering and other carnal celebrations as a customary affair, so why not lap dancing?
That being said, sexism is not acceptable. I just thought I'd try and make the alternative case for MORE sex rather than less sex as a cure to gender / gender preference imbalances.
Because geeks are just as sexual as anybody else.
Kunal Gupta - 20th October 2009 01:29 - #
IMO This is absolutely no different from having cheerleaders at an NFL football game.
What's shameful is you'll find even more female participation in mainstream activities (e.g. Football) with higher levels of female objectification than you will in activities like "Hack Day" which are pretty much asexual, egalitarian, and neutered.
I have more of a problem with the preening moralists objecting to this than anything else. The idea that women are turned off to programming related events because there are some guys there who enjoy looking at beautiful women dance is ridiculous, and just completely transparent hypocritical bullsh*t posturing.
AntiSexist - 20th October 2009 01:31 - #
The apology on YDN:
http://developer.yahoo.net/blog/archives/2009/10/t aiwan_ohd_apology.html
Rob Sharp - 20th October 2009 01:34 - #
Umm, it would be awesome to have lap dances in the US. Frankly, I'm tired of the feminazi influence that seems to be infecting the developer community. It is true that girls are underrepresented in science, engineering and technology, but I guarantee it is not because of the occasional ancillary presence of sexy women.
Jeff - 20th October 2009 01:35 - #
Morale must suck, BIG TIME!
Scott - 20th October 2009 01:37 - #
I posted to Twitter and to DevChix about this on Saturday night, after http://twitter.com/YDN tweeted "ydn: #twopenhack09 Hack Girls show perked up all the hackers, now back to their computers http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=13183338%40N00&q=t wopenhack09&m=text"
"It appears that the Yahoo!'s Open Hack Day had "open hack day girls". More stripper like than cheer leader like in my opinion.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeremyjohnstone/40195 15780/in/set-72157622479262385/
Including lap dances
http://www.vimeo.com/7113753
I am thinking that there may have been more "hack day girls" than women hackers at this event. And, my take, is that with this type of entertainment, they are unlikely going to recruit more women hackers.
I found this so incredibly offensive. Not that I find lap dancing offensive: but there is an appropriate time and place for lap dancing. Open Hack days are not that place.
What is your reaction? Any thoughts on a response to Yahoo! for this?
-Estelle
http://evotech.net/blog "
Originally, the only reaction Yahoo! had to it was to tell ask Jeremy Johnstone to take down the offensive images, vimeo video and comment about the.
three minutes ago we finally got a response:
ydn: Hack Girls from Y! Taiwan open hack event don't reflect our values. Read the YDN blog post: http://developer.yahoo.net/blog/archives/2009/10/t aiwan_ohd_apology.html
"This incident is regrettable and we apologize to anyone that we have offended. Rest assured, it won’t happen again."
I appreciate their sentiment, and hope they don't forget it.
Estelle - 20th October 2009 01:45 - #
*sigh* I've competed in both Bay Area Yahoo! Hack Days. If this had happened at either I would have felt totally uncomfortable.
It's difficult enough to figure out where I fit in as a young female programmer. There aren't that many of us and even fewer attend events outside of work.
To see another young female giving lap dances to my colleagues is terrifying. Which side of the lap dance am I expected to be on??
For shame, Yahoo! Now I have to decide if I feel comfortable attending the next Hack Day.
Leah Culver - 20th October 2009 01:46 - #
Glad to hear that Yahoo has apologized quickly and clearly. As an ardent feminist and a person who mentors younger developers, BS like this makes me see red.
As to jackasses like "Jeff" and "AntiSexist" above: if you want lap dances, go to a strip club, not a tech event. You say you don't understand how you this could possibly bother female developers. And you're right: you don't understand, and you should pipe down until you do. If you'd like to start down that path, try googling "Unpacking the Invisible Napsack".
William Pietri - 20th October 2009 02:05 - #
I find it weird that everyone thinks SimonW is American. Last time I checked he was a brit living in middle england.
This sends out the wrong message as far as I'm concerned. Redbull girls is one thing but lap dancers is a totally other thing.
As I wrote last yesterday, there's no way we would have had this at Hackday London, Mashed, or Over the air - http://www.cubicgarden.com/blojsom/blog/cubicgarde n/socialsoftware/offline/2009/10/18/If-bbc-backsta ge-had-run-hackday-like-this.html . I would have been fired and the British press would have had a field day. Yes it might be a cultural thing but to be honest, Yahoo is a global company and should always think that way, no matter where they find themselves.
You're assuming everyone is straight. Why does everyone do this. :/
Also, what's the big deal about this. I'm sure no one was forced to get a lap dance. I just think it's funny that they had them. Like I understand why it would bother some people, especially female developers. But frankly I think it's their job to get over it and take the giant stick out of their butt.
I'm a female developer and I support lap dances. :)
Cristina - 20th October 2009 02:17 - #
Wasn't there a burlesque show at RubyConf last year?
Even Flash on the Beach had a few …uncomfortable moments this year (you can google it)…
Tech events are for technology. You want a lap dance, I'm sure you can find a bar or two where you can acquire said services.
@Cristina: it's not about supporting lap dances. That kind of activity isn't appropriate for the venue or event.
Derek K. - 20th October 2009 02:38 - #
OH, HAI "William." Thanks for the kind words. I don't think I said I didn't "understand how you [sic] this could possibly bother female developers." Rather, to expound on what I did say, a little sexiness, especially in the context of a culture where it is common, is not the root cause of the gender disparity in the technical community. I suggest you calm down before this devolves further into a flame war.
Jeff - 20th October 2009 02:40 - #
Many tech events have entertainment in addition to talks, hacking, etc (Apple's WWDC's band at the beer bash every year, for example). Strippers are just another form of entertainment.
There is nothing misogynistic about having strippers perform. As a young female developer (and former stripper), I feel that being against having strippers perform is actually the misogynistic viewpoint.
Everyone is saying that women are underrepresented at tech events? Well, here are some women (albeit wearing thongs and triangle-tops instead of black t-shirts and jeans) at a tech event, but everyone is outraged.
To me, this is just more evidence of what an extremely puritanical American society we live in.
Amanda Wixted - 20th October 2009 02:40 - #
Looks like the organisers took their inspiration from such quality entertainment as Beauty and the Geek or Revenge of the Nerds.
I can just imagine being there, looking down to check your ticket, and expecting the person next to you to say, "Ah, ha ha, nah mate, this is Stevo's bachelor party, you want the geeks thing down the hall, second door on the right.".
Since the theme is obviously "Tech meets Uncomfortable" here are some ideas for organisers: How about Chippendales at PyCON? OSCON at Crazy Horse, Las Vegas? DjangoCon pool party?
Nick Lo - 20th October 2009 02:48 - #
What's the big deal? Tech is sexy and fun, why not add some more sex to the mix? Really, lighten up folks!
Anon - 20th October 2009 02:49 - #
I think it's pretty sad that people think that "egalitarian" and "asexual" are being used as epithets.
A few quick points:
* Football cheerleaders are performing for a paying audience at the stadium and on TV. They're not there for the sexual gratification of the players.
* Other countries around the world only allow women limited or zero educational opportunities. By doing so, they're discarding half the available talent pool for highly skilled jobs. I see no reason why the US IT industry as a whole should continue to do the same.
* I'd be off-put by this kind of nonsense as well. It has no place in a professional setting. Take your prize money and go out afterwards if that's your pleasure.
I thought the apology sucked, but otherwise you're right on.
Jessica Gottlieb - 20th October 2009 03:03 - #
Wow, I like it! Looks like my kinda place dude!
RT
www.anonymous.ua.tc
John Woods - 20th October 2009 03:45 - #
I participated in the open hack in NY just a week or so ago and it was nothing like this. There we a fair number of women hacking as well. That was a great event. This looks like a strip club.
steven - 20th October 2009 03:49 - #
Some of these comments are quite silly and immature. Hopefully some are said in jest. Yahoo's Hack Day isn't a boat show or a football game.
And technology events aren't held in strip clubs.
So stop with the apologist nonsense. And if you truly think there's no problem here, recognize that your opinion is not mainstream. Yahoo would not be apologizing if there was nothing wrong with this.
http://praetorianprefect.com/archives/2009/10/yaho o-and-the-objectification-of-women/
DK - 20th October 2009 04:47 - #
I'd like to once again point out the "time and place" issue.
Most women posting here are NOT so terribly offended. I'm not, I'm just concerned that this sends an entirely wrong message to the global community, which it clearly has done.
The other piece is that it's not egalitarian. If we were to make this about sex and fun, we'd have to include something for everyone!
I'll leave what that means up to your prurient imaginations.
Pro-sex, pro-sexy, pro-diversity, pro TIME AND PLACE.
Molly (again)
Molly E. Holzschlag - 20th October 2009 04:47 - #
It would be great if strippers were separate from tech events, but this stuff is rampant at hacker events, most notably at Defcon in Las Vegas. I've been a girl in tech for over 10 years, and porn and strippers seem like background noise to me. It's one of the reasons I like European hacker cons so much, cuz they skip this crap.
Goo gaw - 20th October 2009 05:15 - #
Molly - "pro TIME AND PLACE." Perfectly stated.
Leah Culver - 20th October 2009 06:23 - #
Hooray! Zero tolerance!!! They have to make THEIR culture JUST LIKE MINE!!! ALLAH BE PRAISED!!!!!
reallyevilcanine - 20th October 2009 06:32 - #
Agree with your pro's Molly... but, "TIME & PLACE" in another culture it might be.
http://davestone.posterous.com/yahoo-lap-dancers-y ou-dont-have-the-story
Dave Stone - 20th October 2009 06:41 - #
Hack Gir @ 2008:
http://vbb.twftp.org/showthread.php?t=12745
charlesc - 20th October 2009 07:01 - #
@Molly -- I'm a woman and I'm definitely offended at this type of 'entertainment' at a tech event.
Kess - 20th October 2009 07:33 - #
When you're an international company making relationships with others, it's simply the honorable thing to do.
Look at the repercussions, how many people are upset by this. Why? Because it's not just a cultural issue, but a meta-cultural one.
The Web is, and in my opinion should be, sociologically appropriate in a global sense.
There's a great book out there everyone doing global business should read. It's called "Kiss, Bow or Shake Hands" and it is a wonderful overview of how to best manage in various cultures.
The Web, and we the people of the Web, are part of a meta-culture. It's not a sub-culture, because it is WORLD WIDE.
This is NOT zero-tolerance. It is quite the opposite indeed. Inclusive, not exclusive.
Exclusions can be done elsewhere.
Molly E. Holzschlag - 20th October 2009 08:12 - #
Maybe this is being given more attention than it should be; courtesy twitter. I have heard about tech event managers organizing similar events in conferences but nothing has been bestowed much attention as this. These kind of entrainment is inappropriate but it depends on where you are; in Asian countries like Taiwan, Thailand,etc these type of entrainment are quite common; e.g. Its ok to have a beer along-with lunch in some places but not in some...certainly not in India.
However Yahoo should not have allowed this:-(
Ramki
Ramki B Ramakrishnan - 20th October 2009 08:27 - #
the taiwanese really know how to party. i wish i were there. hack day in sunnyvale was lame lame lame. i can't believe how sensitive everyone is. have you ever been to asia? i mean really been to asia?
Ching Chong - 20th October 2009 08:31 - #
When I've finished my master degree, I would like to work at a place where women are female colleagues, and not just that one girl that puts up with shit like this.
So yeah, it a really big deal.
I’ve heard arguments that this kind of thing is culturally acceptable in Taiwan.....No,it is NOT acceptable.what a shame.
Businessmen just want money ,not caring the effet on kids.
It should have been banned.
caroline yang - 20th October 2009 09:35 - #
事實上是 Y! Taiwan 決定這樣行銷 Yahoo Hack Day ! 並不是因為國情不同！OK ?
台灣人 - 20th October 2009 09:48 - #
I think the difference here is how people are thinking about it. Those who think the dances were okay are exclusively measuring it up on the insensitivity scale—it doesn't bother me/it's probably okay locally in context. Those who have expressed offense are also seeing it on the exclusionary scale—it's the whole assumption that it's a bit of fun "for the boys," and they find those assumptions flawed.
http://atl.posterous.com/yahoo-taiwans-hack-girls
Anti sexists rule the tech world. How that thing is not acceptable? How long more it will take for feminism to completely die?
anti sexist - 20th October 2009 10:18 - #
Hey, I'm a stripper. I only wish they did that here, so I could make some money. Aside from my personal business-based opinion, yeah, it's fairly ridiculous.
Sin - 20th October 2009 11:01 - #
As a long term foreign resident here I must say this is not uncommon in Taiwan.
Culturally acceptable, who knows?
There are family events at the temples here where men are stripped down to their underwear and teased by a lapdancer/stripper. There are kids and old folks at these kinds of events and they find it quite amusing watching the guy get teased.
I doubt whether this would surprise either male of female attendees from Taiwan. Matters of being PC and what Westerners think is "good taste" are just not the same here.
I would bet that the main person in charge of organizing was local, they might not have been exposed to the sensitivities of Westerners. Although as an International company Yahoo! really do need do a little more homework when organizing.
Peter Stewart - 20th October 2009 11:13 - #
Simon, you ask it is culturally acceptable in Taiwan to have this kind of stuff happening at events. It is.
Here's a video of a pole dancer hired to perform at a Temple by the local authorities.
http://www.architxt.net/blog/yahoo-and-the-taiwane se-hack-girls
If girls & Gods can mix so can girls and geeks.
Lawrence - 20th October 2009 11:14 - #
It happened last year as well. No one complained then. Why they outrage now?
John - 20th October 2009 11:30 - #
TEH DRAMA!!!111
Nice girls, btw
Dmitriy Pljonkin - 20th October 2009 11:35 - #
Andrew Gwozdziewycz - 20th October 2009 11:57 - #
I understand most of you nerds are virgins anyways, but you guys gotta gotta chill and stop being so resentful. You'll get some... someday... maybe =)
*sigh* - 20th October 2009 12:35 - #
Are there less woman in IT because they dislike events like this where something "anti-female" happens? Complete BS.
There is clearly a gender bias in what kind of work people like and this is just one of them. Not that I would mind more girls in IT, but these things that always cause discussions are a result of the male culture, not the reason for it.
If that bias ever goes away, so will male-oriented entertainment like this go away. BTW I wouldn't mind some guy stripper at a programming convention, although I would be hard-pressed to find the relevancy it could be a extra-curricular thing, somehow I don't think it would cause the same kind of allegations of deliberate (fe)male domination of an industry. Because it's BS.
freekV - 20th October 2009 12:48 - #
I think hot girl show is no problem. The point is that "The Hack Day is Fake", because most teams finished their creations before the event rather than Hacking and Thinking on the ground. We didn't see "24hr Hacking" that is just like the sentences on the event slogans. So if no girls, why real hackers attend this event? Yahoo must think of why so many hackers is hacking for Google rather than Yahoo ? If Yahoo doesn't have any special techniques to attract hackers, the hot girl is their only one choice.
Fred - 20th October 2009 12:59 - #
This is surely a disproportionate level of fuss over a relatively trivial incident. Don't we have more important matters to worry about?
There's a place for political-correctness, but let's not over-do it. This could be seen as a harmless bit of fun, taken to the extreme. The official apology makes the story slightly more newsworthy. However, it’s not the first time this type of entertainment has featured at an event of this type. Indeed, I hear it’s not the first time Yahoo has had lap-dancers at a hack day. True, it’s arguably inappropriate. Lap dancing doesn’t fit neatly with the spirit of a hack day.
This strikes me as a bit of a "storm in a tea-cup", to invoke the power of a metaphor.
Tim Acheson - 20th October 2009 14:35 - #
I'm not from asia, but it really seems that such kind of shows is normal there (compare to other comments).
If this is the case, it is sad and disgusting how people from other parts of the world dare to tell the asians what is ok and what is not. This is clearly showing the lack of any respect to other cultures.
Hans - 20th October 2009 14:50 - #
you guys need to lighten the hell up. people love to announce how "shocked" and "disappointed" they are to the world, while secretly thinking "lol! sounds like fun!" People need to spend a little less time watching what is going on in other peoples lives and a little more time enjoying their own lives.
Just Me - 20th October 2009 15:05 - #
Looks like the 2009 equivalent of a Mad Men episode.
Graham - 20th October 2009 15:18 - #
Oh come on. You see stuff like this at all games-related conferences, which are *technology* events. You see it at any event involving cars and bikes -- again *technology* events.
The male/female ratio in IT has nothing to do with this sort of stuff and everything to do with slaving away at your desk at 2AM, alone with your text editor and a bunch of IRC channels, often for very little pay. That's what generates the stereotypes (which are especially strong in Asia, where the problem is exacerbated by a professional ethos built on sacrifice and long-hours), and it's the stereotypes that keep women away. That's what the industry should fix, but it would hurt the bottom line.
I'm getting tired of the current waves of religious pseudo-feminism in the various geek communities (Debian, Python etc). Geek culture is probably the most PC community out there, effortlessly accepting of religious and political extremists as well as people from all sorts of ethnic and cultural background, and eager to give a fair chance to everyone. If you want to fight for Great Sexual Justice, get off your high horse and go campaign in Utah or Saudi Arabia.
GL - 20th October 2009 15:26 - #
I wasn't there, but as far as I can tell it was only a few minutes out of a 2 day event. Don't make it sound like the show girls were dancing all night long.
I have no problems with a few minutes of entertainment in such an event. Show girls are common in computer shows in Taiwan, why not hack days? I don't get your argument. If you think this may offend people, especially females, please make a poll with all attendees before jumping to your conclusion. There were female attendees, I'd weight 100x *their* opinions if they complain.
Ping Yeh - 20th October 2009 16:02 - #
Thanks for this smart post about an utterly stupid occurence.
Susan Mernit - 20th October 2009 16:02 - #
Molly has it bang on, Time and Place. Appologies have been sent around. Lets not drag this out much more.
Rather putrid scene of events I'm afraid. This is definitely not representative of the technology sector as a whole -- I realize boys like girls, and girls like boys -- but this isn't the image that tech. needs.
Disheartening really.
David McKendrick - 20th October 2009 17:44 - #
I think most have overreacted far more than is appropriate to the situation.
You're offended, we get it. It sends the wrong message (what message is that exactly? because I can think of any number of messages it sends).
Everyone (everyone!) commenting didn't even attend the event.
You want a pure tech event, right. Tech should be about the tech. So how about NO entertainment EVER. Will that satisfy? Or are you picking a nit because you don't approve of specific types of entertainment because it offends your delicate sensibilities? Any entertainment runs the risk of offending someone. How small is the group that you don't wish to offend? We're being inclusive here, right? No jokes in your Powerpoint/Keynote presentations, no innuendo, nothing to distract from the tech. You want to play, then go all in. Don't be pansies about it by picking on one form of entertainment you don't like. you want to advocate, advocate for everyone.
Cheers!
michael - 20th October 2009 18:31 - #
What the fuck is people's problems with this?
Everyone knows many devs need boobs... Give them what they want!
Jason Lin - 20th October 2009 18:58 - #
I find nothing wrong with sexy dancing girls. Just as long as there are sexy dancing guys for female winners, what's so wrong here?
Johannes - 20th October 2009 20:25 - #
I've seen several comments to the effect of "women just don't like tech work" as if that fully accounts for the dearth of women in IT. Not the sexism. Not the 'old boys' network. You know, I have seen the EXACT same comments about math and women. I wonder why? Here's a great comment Daniel Dvorkin made on Slashdot that applies here as well:
"In every field which was once exclusively male, but is now no longer, it’s been claimed first, that no woman can perform alongside men; second, when the first claim is disproven, that hardly any woman can; and third, when the second claim is disproven, that maybe a few women can, but a majority lack the ability or the inclination. And every single time, as the residual sexism fades, the third claim is shown to be false as well. Business, politics, medicine: it’s a familiar pattern. Now math is next on the list.
In short, if there’s a difference, it’s not the sex, it’s the sexism. Anyone who can’t acknowledge this is a bigot and a twit."
pg - 20th October 2009 20:34 - #
What happened to the devs who wanted to change the world?
They're busy creating "Babe Bombing" apps for photo sites and winning awards in the Yahoo Developer Network. They're defending the honor of strippers as entertainment.
Molly is right, Ian. But there is a need to "drag this out." A significant number of devs and leaders in the tech world, like Loic LeMeur, believe strippers should be at tech conferences and tech business meetings.
An apology by Yahoo doesn't end the debate, or compensate for their error.
How should Yahoo apologize?
I'd like to see Yahoo devs create apps in support of Nick Kristof and Sheryl Wu Dunn's fight for global gender equality. I'd like Yahoo to buy 100,000 copies of their book, "Half the Sky: Turning Oppression Into Opportunity for Women Worldwide" and give it to their employees and customers across the world. I'd like to see Yahoo make a sizeable donation to global efforts to end oppression of women: http://www.halftheskymovement.org/
But I guess that would be puritanical, or too PC.
Kristof states that every year, at least another 2 million girls worldwide disappear because of gender discrimination. He notes it's real in the U.S., just usually not lethal, as it is in so much of the world. He found that Asia is the worst offender: in Asia, if you don't have much food, you feed your son and starve your daughter.
At the peak of the trans-Atlantic slave trade in the 1780s, there were just under 80,000 slaves a year transported to the New World. Now, about 800,000 are trafficked across international borders each year.
The country that's the worst offender? Kristof says India, in terms of brutality inflicted. Girls are kidnapped, then sold as sex slaves to brothels in the cities. In Cambodia, twelve-year old girls used to be auctioned openly to the highest bidder.
It's easy to criticize Google for caving to censors in Communist China or to tweet for freedom in Iran. It's a lot tougher to look at how our "allies" in IT outsourcing and offshoring treat women, acknowledge the problem, and ask ourselves, How are we complicit?
When people claim this isn't "representative of tech" as a whole, who's included? India? Taiwan? Russia? China? Philippines? Thailand? Vietnam?
Or did you just mean this isn't representative of the Silicon Valley brand?
Kevin Heisler - 20th October 2009 22:56 - #
Anyone who quotes Daniel Dvorkin's comments is a bigot and a twit. ;P
michael - 20th October 2009 23:01 - #
Kevin, that's way overkill and nothing but BS. You helping promote the book?
michael - 20th October 2009 23:10 - #
I am currently living in Taiwan and this is a unique part of Taiwanese culture. It's accepted and the girls dance for both guys and girls. It's not exclusive or offensive to women. I doubt anyone attending was offended, why should you be offended by something from another culture? Because you are a closed minded bigot perhaps? A hang-over from your racist past?
There are probably many things in your culture and society that offends people from other cultures.
In this time of globalization and the USA forcing it's culture on others, we should try to preserve other countries' cultures rather than making them conform to ours.
Simon and everyone else "offended" by this, you need to stop thinking that your culture and what you accept as politically correct is the "only way".
JClark - 21st October 2009 02:03 - #
As for those who claim this type of entertainment discourages women from the IT industry, just look at Cher Wang, chairwoman of HTC and VIA and one of the richest people in Taiwan.
If the Taiwanese culture did indeed discriminate against women this would likely have never been possible.
JClark - 21st October 2009 02:18 - #
If Taiwanese women (or men, for that matter) felt this was wrong, they will speak up for themselves, thank you very much.
And this was an event in Taiwan...
It boggles my mind why people think their views should apply or match with folks halfway around the world.
vince wu - 21st October 2009 02:36 - #
Simon,
If you are gay, that's cool but you don't need to be a party pooper for everyone else that is having fun.
anon - 21st October 2009 03:19 - #
Hi Simon:
I am python web programmer from Taiwan, so I have been following your blog for a while. As for my past
experience of attending many events such as conference, workshop, and hack day in Taiwan, I have never saw these kind of scenario happens before. I am also very surprised as you were. Just want to clarify, this occured in Yahoo Taiwan does NOT mean it occured in another IT/high-tech events. A typical geek events pictures in Taiwan is just like this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mouson/sets/721576159 65567363/
I do not think it's much different from other geek events in other part of the before, as I have been attending many conferences and hack days in North America such as OSCON. So please do not be misleaded by YAHOO.
yiyang - 21st October 2009 06:25 - #
Wow, bring out the rampant homophobia and accusations of racism. All that's missing is statements about how the reason there are no women in tech is because women just can't code.
Thank you for posting this Simon. It's good to know that this isn't condoned by everyone.
For those that think that this type of behavior doesn't discourage women, talk to some women who have either left tech or are in tech. You will find that the rampant sexism IS a factor for many of us. There might be some that think that being objectified is fabulous fun, but most women do not.
Judith - 21st October 2009 06:42 - #
What did you want to do?
にきび - 21st October 2009 08:44 - #
This photograph was surprised.
car - 21st October 2009 08:48 - #
For the males who say that they are not offended by this event, let's change the context slightly. Would the case be different if it was a guy sitting in a chair and a male lapdancer gyrating and making advances? I would guess most of you would be at least uncomfortable and sometimes more. Put yourself into someone elses shoes a bit more.
DocK - 21st October 2009 10:51 - #
It's good to hear some voices from Taiwan.
If this was a launch event for some local Yahoo! Taiwan product, I wouldn't have kicked up a fuss. The problem is that it's a cross-over event. This is an "Open Hack Day" - part of a series of similar events taking place around the world (events which I have promoted to anyone who would listen). This form of entertainment at Open Hack Day in Taiwan discourages people elsewhere in the world from attending those other events, which is why I'm making a fuss about it.
Would the event really have been so much worse without it?
I don't support Yahoo hiring strippers for the conference. Women should not be forced to sell their bodies in order to live a decent life. On the other hand, I also don't support Yahoo hiring programmers either. Human beings should not be forced to develop software under hierarchical management for the purpose of advertising in order to live a decent life. Neither the sex nor the software industry should be run by anyone except the workers, and these workers must create balanced job complexes so that the rewarding and shit work would be shared by all.
For those asking "what if the genders were switched"...first of all I must say that you have a rather old fashioned idea of binary gender. There are all kinds of exciting, beautiful, awesome, crazy gender variations. Fem guys, Masc gurls, transgender, intersex, genderqueer, chimeras, etc. Real liberation will come, not when old male sexist behavior ends, but when we don't even think of people as male or female anymore. Male and female will just be ends of a spectrum.
Second of all....what if the genders were switched? I'm a hetero cis-gendered male and I wouldn't mind going to a conference of mostly women who happen to have male strippers available for them. Nor would I mind men with gay male strippers, women with women strippers, genderqueer strippers, whatever. I have an issue with the strippers doing their work for money...I have an issue with capitalism in general...but not stripping as an activity. In fact, the idea that people are clothed 99% of the time strikes me as far stranger than the occasions when we are not clothed, so go ahead, TAKE IT OFF!
And a right to see other people nekid goes for people of any age. The real perversion is pretending that young people are asexual and that sex is something harmful that they must be shielded from.
Mike - 21st October 2009 11:35 - #
In Asia business and sex go hand in glove. Don't like it? Then stay the hell home with your narrow Western values.
MongerSEA - 21st October 2009 11:46 - #
"I’ve heard arguments that this kind of thing is culturally acceptable in Taiwan <snip> I don’t care."
Good of you to admit you do not care about another society and it's culture.
I don't like you drinking coffee and believing in God. But I would rather die defending your right to do so than impose my subjective viewpoint on the matter.
/thread
funkensteinberg - 21st October 2009 13:39 - #
Despicable, Outrageous, Sexist and don't forget unfair.
Where are all the nubile young men for the female Hackers?
Papa Ray - 21st October 2009 14:53 - #
Given that the absence of any sense of humor among the participants here, and the fact that they represent the type of people who would go to such events, half naked women is probably the only reason I would consider going - especially if I was sitting next to some of these humorless drones.
And let's face it, the blogger is probably doing this to show his wife -"See Honey, I'm totally against this type of thing!" so she won't suspect when he's out with his buddies at the strip joint.
Methinks you doth protest to much!
And having witnessed what goes on when WOMEN are around exotic dancers, most of you ladies have no place to comment! If men did what women get away with, we'd be arrested!!
kappa - 21st October 2009 16:16 - #
"many guy geeks I know would be mortified by this kind of thing."
Are you serious? Have you been on the internet lately? I'm pretty sure this isint going to offend most avid male internet users.
sam - 21st October 2009 16:37 - #
Mike, as much as I would like to live in a world that nudity is so commonplace that it's not worth commenting on, paying women to dance for the gratification of men is not the way to get there.
Simon, thank you for posting this. The pictures are disappointing, but the reaction to your post is worse.
I would hope the individuals responsible for this will face repercussions. Otherwise Yahoo is not really apologizing.
Jen - 21st October 2009 19:00 - #
Brendan Taylor: Of course I oppose "paying women to dance for the gratification of men". I also pointed out that such commerce is at a level of exploitation about the same as any other job. Yahoo's main business: "paying people to sit in cubicles, under direct managerial supervision to produce code to further sell ads (aka to further convince people to buy products that they don't need and wouldn't otherwise want) is just as exploitative as funding the sex industry.
The answer for people working in jobs that rob them of their human potential isn't to have more female programmers or more male strippers...The answer is to eliminate capitalism all together and to replace it with workers self management and balanced job complexes.
Sure women are exploited in different and unique ways. So are homosexuals, transgenders, racial minorities, younger people, older people, etc. Almost everyone has some identity with a particular grievance against the existing social order. Why can't we join together and fight against all forms of oppression?
Mike - 21st October 2009 19:59 - #
There's a long tradition of strippers in Taiwan at weddings and funerals, which goes back to an even older tradition of the erotic, including public coupling, in southern China temple culture. There was a wave of prudery in the 18th-19th century that coincided with the arrival of missionaries in the 19th century, so people often think that Chinese culture is more prudish than it actually has historically been.
In Taiwan it is perfectly normal for nubile femmes to parade around in revealing outfits at events such as store openings or new product offerings. Anyone who has been to a show or exhibition in Asia has seen plenty of flesh. That aspect seems in line with everything I've seen before in twenty years here.
It seems a bit more over the top than normal -- never heard of lap dancing with strangers -- but not out of the range of unacceptable, in a nation where pole dancing at temple festivals is normal and strippers perform at weddings and the roads are lined with lovely betel nut girls, which Boing Boing has noted before.
Michael Turton
The View from Taiwan blog
Michael Turton - 22nd October 2009 00:42 - #
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE59D0 BR20091014?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=11604& sp=true
chad - 22nd October 2009 04:09 - #
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tWwMSM4OZQ&feature =related
A break - 22nd October 2009 09:40 - #
whatever, you guys have _no idea_ what that lap dance means in a taiwanese context (nothing, it's barely sexual even and the christian prudeness doesn't apply at all in tw).
american media (tv, movies, music videos especially) are way more off the charts compared to what happened here. you should think it much more as attention grabbing spectacle (but honestly a little played out in taiwan).
next time you guys want to cry about something, let's see your reactions when britney spears comes out with her next music video. i don't hear the cries about how "anti-female" the music business is.
programmer in taiwan - 22nd October 2009 13:44 - #
by the way, there was NO NUDITY. several of the comments and the original post don't make the distinction. there was "lap dancing" but not lap dancing. you all need to differentiate between the two.
programmer in taiwan - 23rd October 2009 07:01 - #
This is getting a bit overblown..
Are people really that offended by the 'pole dancers' who seem to be wearing about as much clothing as many teen girls in America walk around the streets in?
Really?
J Davis - 26th October 2009 17:34 - #
If you're worried about this affecting the male/female ratio, this is the least of your worries. Let's face facts - most women just aren't into engineering. Look how sexist the music industry is - and yet they have no problem attracting women. And given that you see this stuff from cheerleaders at any sports event or grid girls at racing events, I don't see people complaining that sports need to change their image of being horny males.
Verbal - 27th October 2009 16:43 - #
Anderson - 2nd November 2009 06:02 - #
Anderson - 2nd November 2009 06:13 - #